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What are the main differences between 1st & 2nd ed. ???

 
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calmar



Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 94


Location: Lyon , France

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:11 am    Post subject: What are the main differences between 1st & 2nd ed. ???  Reply with quote

Hello,

 Maybe my question would seem stupid , maybe there somewhere in the forum someone related these topics, but I can't find it.
I would like to know a complete list of a complete differences between C&S 1st ed. book and C&S 2nd ed. box ( except evident things , like armor system, absence of mass combat & horoscope at the start of boxed set... )
To me , it doesn't seem evident ....

Thank you all , and sorry for my ignorance ( I'm still a newbie here... )
Embarassed
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Characters creation:
the calculation of BP and beyond FP has been modified
generally, there is less difference between the superhumans and the "normal" individuals
Hobbits have disappeared and all references to the world of Tolkien for the Elves

battles:
armors have absorption point and therefore have limited lifetimes
the damage will be calculated automatically, then have to go through a table

magic:
it has very little change
black magic, however, disappeared ...

certain items (battle ground) disappeared but are found in supplements
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calmar



Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 94


Location: Lyon , France

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:50 am    Post subject: thanks ! Reply with quote

I bought recently the 2 sourcebooks 2nd ed. , to read it more easily, and I saw what you said.
I read yesterday the armor system in depth and it seems to me a bit obscure...I will read it again...
Something seems to me really difficult to play is personal combat against more than one opponent ! ex: three or four player characters against, say ten different opponents... waow ! how it seems really complex to play ! I think figures should be an obligation...
Ha , yes you're right , I didnt realized black magic disappeared , off course !
Maybe I would ask some other questions under this topic ( maybe armor system again.. ) , the 2nd ed. is really easier to read , but not at all perfect  : you have to read further to know what the last chapter meant ( obscure abbreviatons, formulas... ).
The game is great , really great , but somehow a bit to much complex to be funny for new players...happily , when I will play , it will be for my old player friends..my wife asked me if she could try the rpg , she doesn't know what it is at all...I don't think C&S is the best one to begin, it's better made for hardcore rpg fans, I presume...
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Shane Devries
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Dom is incorrect. 2nd edition still has a full list of "Black Magic" spells. It was 3rd Edition that dropped Black magic.
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calmar



Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 94


Location: Lyon , France

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject: Ah ??? Reply with quote

Ah ?
Ok. I have to look. I still didnt read the third book of 2nd ed. I just read Gorgon.
Thanks for your verification !  Confused
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shane is right,
the rules sanitizing began in the 2nd edition with the disappearance of references to Tolkien.
Then it was black magick in the third edition.
cheers,
Dom
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Shane Devries
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I was hugely disappointed that 3rd Edition dropped Black Magic - I personally feel they should NOT have done so.

As for Tolkien references I do understand the decision as The Lord of The Rings movies were starting to come out then and anything Tolkien was big news so having what could be considered copywritten material in the books may have caused a problem for the owners of C&S. Sad though because I loved the references to Uruk Hai, Balrogs etc...
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the bigger changes in 2nd edition was that it implemented a fairly basic skill system, something first edition was missing. You could learn skills outside your vocation, but they cost Experience points.

Magick was identical to first edition, because at the time, Ed and Wilf were not speaking, and Ed felt that if he made any changes, Wilf would object, which would delay publication.

Overall, I felt 2nd edition was an improvement to first, but I think they went a little overboard with the Character Genertion point buy system.
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rohan wrote:
Magick was identical to first edition, because at the time, Ed and Wilf were not speaking, and Ed felt that if he made any changes, Wilf would object, which would delay publication.


Not exactly.
The Concentration Level (CL) had disappeared.
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dom wrote:
Rohan wrote:
Magick was identical to first edition, because at the time, Ed and Wilf were not speaking, and Ed felt that if he made any changes, Wilf would object, which would delay publication.


Not exactly.
The Concentration Level (CL) had disappeared.


Fair enough, I should of said "almost identical". Compared to the rest of the system, Magick did not change meaningfully.
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess Wilf made minor changes but the magick system was largely perfect in his whole and need not to be modified.
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dom wrote:
I guess Wilf made minor changes but the magick system was largely perfect in his whole and need not to be modified.


As I have mentioned before, I never met Wilf, and only have Ed's word to go on, but he said that Wilf did not have anything to do with C&S2 and that's why the Magick rules did not undergo substantial revision. I played with Ed and Waterloo Games (The game Scott Bizar's parents owned) in the 80's when he came up to put the final touches on C&S2, so I heard it directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak. It was a crazy few sessions because there were over 10 players. He was great to run with though, as you can imagine.
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rohan, can you tell us more:
- did Ed used Arden for the play testing?
- why Ed and Wilf were not speaking together for 2nd edition?
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dom wrote:
Rohan, can you tell us more:
- did Ed used Arden for the play testing?
- why Ed and Wilf were not speaking together for 2nd edition?


I'll do my best Dom, I did know Ed for 30 years, although there were quite a few gaps in between.


I first met Ed in the Early 80's when he was in Mineola NY putting the finishing touches on C&S 2, as well are working on some Space Opera stuff. The owner of FGU, Scott Bizar, also owned a Game Store with his parents, called Waterloo Games. I got to play in several of his playtest games when he was out here, with a large group of people, and had a complete blast!

The setting was not Arden, but Kargard, which was part of the Archaeron campaign along with Arden. I believe he was working on a Kargard supplement at the time, but sadly it was never released. Ed was a teacher and spent almost a month of his Summer in NY, so I got in 7 or 8 sesssions. The setting was a coastal raiding kingdom that terrorized the western shores, with a Norman England tech level. It was very fun!

I maintained contact with Ed through the years, first by letter, then email, and in the later  years a few times by phone. I never met Wilf, or the current publisher, but have met both Scott (FGU) and GW (Highlander).

Ed's falling out with Wilf was due to the amount of control Wilf wanted compared to the amount of work actually done on the books. According to the parties involved (again, I never met Wilf personally), Wilf was a great idea man. He could sit there and throw out interesting ideas for hours. But he left it up to Ed to write everything down. And I mean everything. Ed wrote all of the first two editions of C&S. Wilf came up with detailed notes for for Magick, but left the actual writing to Ed. The only thing Wilf actually wrote himself for C&S were the Laws of Magick appearing in Companion one.

This got Ed more and more upset, who felt he was being used, and eventually everything came to a head. Wilf left, formed his own company and wrote two small books called Mage and Warrior for a new system, and then nothing after.

Highlander tried to get Wilf involved in 3rd edition, and that didn't work out so well. Wilf didn't keep his deadlines after saying Magick was his, and Ed and GW had to hastily come out with the system you saw in 3rd.

Britainia also had a bad falling out with Wilf, which actually hit the C&S mailing list. That I know very little of, other that what I read at the time, and the few things Ed told me.

Wilf was by all means was a great guy to hit up for ideas, but it can be very frustrating to work with someone like that creatively, if you are doing most of the actual writing, especially when they want equal control and compensation.
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Dom



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 219



PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for all these enlightments.
I better understand now how the redbooks editions came out: Wilf had a lot of new ideas and notes for C&S and the anonymous publisher (FGU ?) issues editions after editions. What a shame Ed and Wilf could not work along!
I've got a pdf copy of Mage and Warriors (the 2 stand alone games of Wilf you mentioned). If you are interested pm me.
Cheers,
Dom
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Shane Devries
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 542


Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, thx for the history Rohan. Very interesting to understand the relationships they had and the problems of those relationships.

On another note, Rohan, do you understand C&S 2nd Edition VERY well? I would like to run a couple of questions by you in regards to the mechanics of 2nd edition and the understanding of them. If ok ?

Shane
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 53



PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well...Yes, I think. I played it the longest of all of my editions, and I did correspond with Ed about a few things. Whatever you've got I'll try to answer at to the best of my ability.
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Shane Devries
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx mate,

Really appreciate it. I will be asking a few questions over time related to the game history, directions they were taking it, what was in the pipe line that never made it and whether there is stuff that could be released to the eager wider playing public?

If there is any info you deem important or interesting to share with us please feel free to do so. The more history and information you share with us the will be plastered here as a written form of memory for everyone to share for as long as this forum lives.

Really appreciated,
Shane
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Hack, Slay, NO Role-Play !!
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catacomb librarian



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dom wrote:
Many thanks for all these enlightments.
I better understand now how the redbooks editions came out: Wilf had a lot of new ideas and notes for C&S and the anonymous publisher (FGU ?) issues editions after editions. What a shame Ed and Wilf could not work along!
I've got a pdf copy of Mage and Warriors (the 2 stand alone games of Wilf you mentioned). If you are interested pm me.
Cheers,
Dom


I'd love a pdf copy of those... Rolling Eyes

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