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Mass combat in C&S in all its forms

 
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Shane Devries
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 545


Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject: Mass combat in C&S in all its forms  Reply with quote

Hi all,

This forum is for those who have played mass combat battles in C&S in any of its forms from the earlier versions of the game. This includes the figure rules from 1st edition and the supplement Swords & Sorcerers, the revamped figure system from Source book I and the quick play system in Source book II.

Personally over the years these rules systems have given my group a great deal of depth to our campaigns and a good deal of fun. I think this part of the rules is generally forgotten by many but if used can create a great deal of depth to a campaign setting.

Shane
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Underminer



Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 34



PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually used the mass battles rules from the 1st edition, which I actually thought were fairly well done (I bought 1st edition thinking it was just a miniature rule set for the period).  I've also used the mass battles system quick version.  In fact, a friend of mine and I once played out an entire campaign using that.

I also wrote a couple of board game rule sets based on the 1st edition and using counters from the old SPI Prestags Games (I bought multiple copies of all but Musket and Pike).
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Marshall



Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 19


Location: Dearborn, MI USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject: Kaldoric Civil War Reply with quote

Hi Shane,

I once used the quick mass combat in Sourcebook II to run the Kaldoric Civil War in a campaign in Harn.  It made a great backdrop for the characters.  (In my version Scina married Cheselyne the Younger, Maldan was killed in an assault on the Dariune's stronghold, and Scina was elected King.  Troda and Cheselyne the elder continue to intrigue as the "powers behind the throne.")

Marshall
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Shane Devries
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Joined: 01 Nov 2008
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Marshall,

How did you like the system? Did you use figures to fight it out or pen & paper?

Currently we are using the massed pen & paper version and really enjoying it. I have the guys involved in a large campaign where they are trying to help stem the tide of an eastern barbarian invasion. They are right now involved in a large battle in which the barbarians outnumber them 3:2 and things are getting ugly for them.

Shane
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Marshall



Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 19


Location: Dearborn, MI USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Shane,

I liked it.  (It's been a few years!)  I used it as pen and paper.  My group wasn't really into the wargame aspect of the campaign, so I used the pen and paper to prepare the overall backdrop of the war for the characters to campaign against.

It really freaked them out the day they were on the wrong road, all armored up (as usual) and got conscripted by the forces of Conwan Elendsa!

Cheers,
Marshall
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Shane Devries
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will tell you, I actually do mass combat another way these days, it involves simply knowing how many combatants you have, their quality level and comparison to their enemy. Once you know this then you simply roll a dice for each individual on both sides once per combat turn (completion of blows from 1st to last in 2.5 minutes).

Once you compare their quality you assign a particular dice to each side and roll needing to score the top number of that dice to gain one kill on the enemy. For each combatant that gains a kill you re-roll for him to see if he scores a second and so on...

For example, In my campaign I have the group commanding 10 companies of Militia, these are poor troops and not much can be expected from them .They are up against Barbarians who are very capable warriors. In this example the comparison reveals that each Militiaman is assigned a D10 will the need to score a kill on a roll of "0". The Barbarians on the other hand are assigned a D6 needing to score a "6" to gain a kill. Both sides then roll "once" for each combatant to see how many kills are scored.

The way we do Morale is simple also, the Ferocity of the leader is their morale level. You simply find out how many men you lost, convert this into percentages of your total and each 5% lost is taken from the Ferocity that must be rolled equal to or less than to stand and continue to fight. These is more to this but you get the idea.

It is really simple and easy and works for us well, I even let the guys do the rolling for their own side so that they get involved and have fun with it.

Shane
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Don Holt



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 148


Location: NC, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:44 am    Post subject: A quick table Reply with quote

After playing the lifting of a siege of Eastport (numbers of 500 defenders, 3000 (weak) attackers, and 400 mounted knights sweeping the attackers from behind), the attackers fell back. For the second battle, the numbers were 7500 former attackers and the main Arden army arrived with 20,000. Well it was just too much, so I made a short table that worked well as our knights took on a leadership role rather than combatant.

So I gave them five choices of actions:
Win Valor, Distinguished Service, Trooper, Play it Safe, Hide

With each option there were two numbers associated with the option.
The chance to suffer a grievous wound and the chance to get noticed.
In addition, depending on which choice you made, the results of getting noticed were to gain Honour(Win Valor and Dis. Ser.), Cowardice(Trooper/Pay It Safe), or be called a Deserter(Hide).

Choice        Wound %     Notice % Result
Win Valor        60%           100%   Honour
Dis. Ser.         25%             80%   Honour
Trooper           10%             5%    Cowardice
Play Safe         3%              40%   Cowardice
Hide                0%              30% x 4 as senior commanders compare notes, roll once each session. Your deceit is discovered. Deserter/Treason

Grievous wounds(2D6)
Roll          Result          Comments
2              Dead           Your favorite Hymn here
3              Head Hit       lose 3 INT and 2 Wisdom permanently.
4              Lose an arm. 70% sword arm
5              Lose a Hand   70% sword hand
6              Chest wound  2xCon save @+6 or dead
7               Gut wound     1xCon save @+7 or dead.
8              Groin wound    1xCon save @+3 or dead, 1xDex save @+8 or sterile
9              Lose a foot
10            Lose a Leg
11            Paralyzed at Waist
12            Dead

3 players choose Distinguished service, 2 survived, the new player was paralyzed
1 player choose Win Valor, received a grievous chest wound and survived! Literally he had to thank his lucky stars, his horoscope gave him just enough to survive the second roll. He had thought of it and called the modifier before either roll.
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Matthew Owen



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 7


Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:48 am    Post subject: Battle Game Rules Reply with quote

I like the rules in the original C&S. They are the same as the War Games Research Rules published in South UK at about the same time. I find the rules in the sourcebook a good read but do not feel that the six sided die rolls are explained in detail enough to follow exactly. I stick witht the War games research group or original C&S casualty tables.

I have been playing some skirmish and dnd battle games a bit and would like to find more people willing to play the C&S rules. I live and play in the London area.

I would also like to see developed or develop rules for skirmish level C&S battles. I have been moving toward average damage per turn for the NPCs in my roll playing game encounters.
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I have run a Chivalry Sorcery game since 1979. The world's largest kingdom is Arraken. A link from my web site takes you to the game web site with some 2nd ed characters posted. The game I run these days is 4th ed. I also run a 3.5 Greyhawk game.
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Castelain



Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 76


Location: Bromsgrove, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The WRG (Wargames Research Group) rules are de-facto rules for Ancients (and have been for decades) in the UK (possibly elsewhere as well but I don't have any knowledge about that) used at club level and regional/national competitions.

By Skirmish level do you mean?
* too numerous to be dealt with by C&S rules
* too few to be dealt with by WRG or Mass Battle rules

Perhaps you can expand on your idea/problem? Is C&S providing too much or too little detail resulting in too fast or too slow skirmish play?
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Last edited by Castelain on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Karonus



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 72


Location: Dudley, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can confirm that BGD demo'ed a set of mass combat rules at the last Dudley Bug Ball that was held back in 2002?

We as we now have means to get stuff moving again the original draft has been dusted off.

It contains

Skirmish rules
Mass Battle Rules
Rules for including magic and miracles in mass battles (as well as shrines and battle songs/chants)
Rules for creating your own units from the ground up.
and of course running campaigns.

Do you want Armoured infantry using longbows - then no problem.

Still needs some work on it.

Lets just say I started in the hobby as a Grognard back in 1975, wrote a set of napoleonic rules at the age of 14 etc....

My first campaign was a fantasy ancients campaign with a friend and then someone introduced us to AD&D in 1979...

Steve Turner
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Matthew Owen



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 7


Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject: Skirmish Reply with quote

Yes I find that when I have a large combat with many NPCs but only a few PCs the detail of the rules is good for the PCs but I would like some quick rules for the npcs. I play a few different games and one game I like is the dnd Skirmish rules. I have thought of using these for NPCs in but I have been fudging average damage rules instead right now, as C&S weights creatures differently than dnd does. Plus C&S rules are more real overall.  

I would like to go through the rules and calculate some average damage rules for combat, based on damage factor and average hits per round. These would quicken the NPC combats that go on around the PC action but have not spent the time as of yet.

That is good to hear from Steve that there are rules I would like to play test them if there ever is a chance. I helped play test the SCA Combat of the Thirty rules at Salute this last year in London and I liked those rules. Though they are still in a work phase, I suggested shield bashes be added and some other C&S like choices.

Are there any other Dudley demos? I do head up to Dudley every few months for Microsoft testing. Or will for the next year at any rate.
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I have run a Chivalry Sorcery game since 1979. The world's largest kingdom is Arraken. A link from my web site takes you to the game web site with some 2nd ed characters posted. The game I run these days is 4th ed. I also run a 3.5 Greyhawk game.
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Ekktor



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

For our campaign we adapt GMT Games Great Battles of History, which scale is well adapted to major action. The game system is brilliant but not too complex and makes for very lively action.

For quicker play, we have a paper and pencil system that allows some tactics flexibility to give some flavour to the battle.
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Shane Devries
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit, I also love the 1st edition mass combat systems in all of its forms from C&S 1st edition. We have used them in all our campaigns and still use them today.

Great to see that C&S in its current form is expanding into mass combat. look forward to checking out the new system.

Shane
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Ekktor



Joined: 15 Jul 2012
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first edition system is quite nice, we used it for quite a few battles years ago now. The only drawback, as with all miniatures system, is the space required. Also these systems usually lack good rules representing the chain of command. This is a major plus in Great Battles of History where the quality of the commanders has a much geater impact (as I think it should).
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Rohan



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I preferred the Strategic combat system to the tactical one with miniatures myself, authored by the great Phil McGregor. I resolved many a battle with the system.
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Shane Devries
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah yes, I used the Strategic system many times also over the years. It is perfect for GM's that need battles resolved quickly and intelligently.
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Matthew Owen



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: 1st ed is wargames research group Reply with quote

Is not the rule system published in the 1st edition the war games research group rules that were published in Sussex, UK in 1980's or before. C&S was mid late 70's, War game research group is DBA etc these days. I too like the 1st ed and the maths version for RPG use from the sourcebooks. I have used it to good effect and liked both systems.

I would like to do some more play testing of the new rules I picked up from Steve, but the gamer who rented a room from me moved back to Columbia, and I have not been able to find anyone else.

For the most part I get a bit too busy to track down gamers interested, I would like to find some. Once I get more time in my time table I will start sorting it again.


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I have run a Chivalry Sorcery game since 1979. The world's largest kingdom is Arraken. A link from my web site takes you to the game web site with some 2nd ed characters posted. The game I run these days is 4th ed. I also run a 3.5 Greyhawk game.
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